00:00.00 Ashleigh Airey Hi you're listening to episode 14 of and my trial where we look at the fantastic side of archeology and the archaeological side of fantasy I'm ash and today we're going to be talking about the. 00:07.40 archaeoteacup And I'm tilly oh wait I I don't think we should speak of it. 00:18.73 Ashleigh Airey Dark Lord see nothing happened till he were fine. Okay, so you might you may have heard of the dark lord. No ah no. 00:20.21 archaeoteacup Okay, and. 00:26.10 archaeoteacup Um, do you by the way mean sauron. Oh ah, Dracuma ah wait oh I know doth vda oh so. 00:36.86 Ashleigh Airey Or God All of the above. Ok, there's so many? Um, but really the dark Lord and I'm going to keep doing that every single time I said the dark Lord um is a type as an archetype. Ok he is the antagonist. Um, ah for most fantas fiction. 00:43.78 archaeoteacup That dog lord. 00:52.84 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 00:55.21 Ashleigh Airey Um, they can be many things many faces sometimes genders people races and not rhymed and even objects in some cases. Oh I did I just rhymed that all didn't even know it? Um, but they are always seen as the epitome of emperor like power darkness and even. 01:02.65 archaeoteacup Oh my goodness you're a poet and you don't even know it. 01:14.98 Ashleigh Airey Death and so to our quest tilly we're going to face some extremely tough questions this week did you by chance see that Raven that arrived at the office this morning. 01:17.18 archaeoteacup Is it. 01:26.51 archaeoteacup Oh God Yeah, the one with the like smoky tendrils coming off it? Yeah oh man that bloody thing tried to bite me as I was boiling the kettle. 01:34.51 Ashleigh Airey Oh right? Well it arrived the quest tucked into its bity little beak and from the magisterium of malintent The ground council of the dark lords. 01:41.66 archaeoteacup Um. 01:44.15 archaeoteacup Ah, wait what they once called the convocation of Infernal Evil and malignant affairs. Okay. 01:52.48 Ashleigh Airey Ah, yeah, and there's a bit of being a bit of a change of power going on there which is why I think they've come to us turns out, there's been a bit of a brewing argument going on similar to our wizards. Um and a vie for power. 02:02.75 archaeoteacup The. 02:06.75 Ashleigh Airey Between the dark lords they simply just can't decide who should be the arch overlord of the dark lords. Um, so the usual tactics aren't working you know pillaging burning all that kind of stuff so they've come to us requesting that we look at the archaeological record and tell them how to name their overlord. 02:15.33 archaeoteacup Order that. 02:22.57 archaeoteacup Okay, so we look at the archeological record see how people in the past have like displayed power and hierarchy before and then send that to the dark lords for judgment. Got it? okay. 02:33.14 Ashleigh Airey Yes, exactly ok today. So you've named at least 3 different dark lords within popular fiction there and but can you think of any other fantasy books or any type of media. Really. That and features the dark lord archetype. Yeah. 02:51.17 archaeoteacup God I mean pretty much all of them like actually thinking of it I mean yeah, there's actually so as soon as you started saying dark lord it reminded me It's not a fictional book. But it's this fantasy like radio series I think it was on radio four in the uk it stars Stephen Mangan who's like a british comedian and it's called Elven Quest I don't know have you heard it. Oh my gosh you have to you have to listen to it. It is so hilarious. It's basically like a complete. 03:17.55 Ashleigh Airey I haven't but I really need to think. 03:26.76 archaeoteacup Take of of all sort of fantasy things. It's this guy from the modern world who um and the ah a bunch of like fantasy people come into our world and then they say we need to bring the chosen one back to our world. You know doing it. He's going. No No I'm not the chosen one of there saying no not you your dog and the talk gets taken through but then he goes with it. And then it turns out the dog turns into like a person but um, but yes, but and then there's this whole.. It's like a massive whole thing and they have to record this recall the sword of what's it called I can't remember the sword of Asnagar. That's the one. Um because because whoever wields the sword shall Rule lower Earth and so they need the chosen one and. 03:59.00 Ashleigh Airey That't the car I was get 1 04:05.00 archaeoteacup Um, to help them find it. But then there's a dark lord who's trying to find it as well and I can't remember now who plays the dark lord um and let me just see if I can quickly lord darkness is his name and it's Alistair Mcgowan who's who's the actor who plays it oh my god and he is so good. 04:18.82 Ashleigh Airey Oh my god Altin Mcgowan's great. Yeah yeah. 04:24.97 archaeoteacup And yeah, so he's you know Lord of evil you know lord darkness dominating lower earth and yeah, he keeps getting front. He he keeps having all these evil plans but then inevitably the like group of questas always outwit him because he has like his midians but they're all extremely stupid. And so you have like Creech who's his right hand but he's you know also quite an idiot and so basically the dark lord is like the only intelligent one and he's there going like I forgot sake you know. 04:55.10 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, that that's quite That's part of the archetype isn't it like it's always fighting evil and there's always there's the power balance. So there's the dark Lord and then there's the hero that comes along and saves him the chosen one. Um, and if you think about the dark Lord There's loads of different. 04:56.70 archaeoteacup And. 05:03.42 archaeoteacup Um, yes, yeah. 05:11.71 Ashleigh Airey Characters of dark lords I mean sometimes there's a I got lost in a bit of the research and there's many arguments about even if like even if saur Run's the dark Lord or like or what margoth or yeah, it' like but are they actually a dark lord. 05:15.85 archaeoteacup Then. I Mean that is the ultimate dark Lord right? Yeah, exactly. 05:27.31 Ashleigh Airey Um, so if you think about all the different kind of fiction that we read and fantasy. There's like obviously you follow the mor. Um, there's Sauron. There's so many that I can't actually think of how many there are. 05:40.69 archaeoteacup Right? There's just but indeed I love that there always I mean so you have like this elvin quest I've just remembered another one um in the just befored series Thursday next series which is a kind of fantasy um series about ah literary. Detectives. So so they have to go into the books and basically so like in the first one. The air affair Jane Ayre gets kidnapped that's kind of it's not It's not really a spoiler because it's kind of obvious in the book. But yeah and I'm one of the agents is this dark lord character and there's. 06:01.76 Ashleigh Airey Oh I've heard these? Yes, Yes, yes. 06:12.57 archaeoteacup Remember there's some like scene where he wants to get his contract updated so he says no I want at least a 400 word introduction to a chapter and they're like ok, fine and then like halfway through the book. There's this random paragraph at the beginning of a chapter which is like the dark lord du a strides into the thing with his cloak billowing behind him. So I feel like. A lot of the time. It's sort of there's two sides of it right? There's that there's the almost slightly comedic. Oh he's the dark lord but he keeps getting thwarted and it's sort of like made made ridiculous looking almost and then there's the dark lord like Sauron who is just quite scary and like. 06:45.20 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, so there's a bit of a phenomena around the dark lord right? So according to the Encyclopedia Of Fantasy by John Grant and John Klute they describe the dark lord as a character that often operates under the constraints or prohibitions. 06:49.86 archaeoteacup Yeah. 06:54.25 archaeoteacup Move. 07:03.76 Ashleigh Airey So and thus is often vulnerable to quibbles. Um the he or they are often or has been a mallike malignant sleeper who has been awoken by the investigations of unwary curiosity. Um, he is often or has been the former servant of an even greater Dark lord. 07:13.12 archaeoteacup A. 07:23.44 Ashleigh Airey And has often been already defeated but not destroyed Eons beforehand. 07:28.70 archaeoteacup And that's like Sauron as well. Right I haven't I haven't admit I haven't gotten through the silver meillian but I feel like from what I have read from that. That's what he is basically right? He was the main servant of I can't remember the name of the previous 1 more goth right? Yeah yeah, yeah, um, yeah. 07:39.16 Ashleigh Airey More goth. Yeah yeah, so that that's kind of a key point and the thing is Tolen sort of makes the archetype a lot of the fans that fancy books and series that we read afterwards where we watch. 07:45.20 archaeoteacup Okay, that minute. 07:49.69 archaeoteacup Note. 07:56.27 Ashleigh Airey Ah, they use Tolcan's archetype of sauron to um, model their dark lords so there is this kind of idea that there's a very and pure dark lord which is terrifying. Okay, so. 08:02.52 archaeoteacup Ah, f. 08:07.16 archaeoteacup There. 08:09.95 Ashleigh Airey In and the encycloped of fantasy. They also say that the dark old is frequently rooted in whatever political or religious figures happen to be worrying readers at the time. So yeah, so if you look at like Sauron right? He combines total tell hotel ah tyre. 08:17.93 archaeoteacup Fair Yeah because yeah. 08:28.79 Ashleigh Airey Totalitarian rule and when is Tolkien writing he's writing during a time where dictatorship is on the rise and you've got these kind of prolific characters that are coming up and really ruining the landscape and ruining people's lives. Um and and that's. 08:30.51 archaeoteacup Um, ah yeah. 08:41.53 archaeoteacup Yeah, which makes sense right? Then if you because you want to do something that will indeed strike terror into the heart of the reader so you want to use something that is is relatable in terms of that fear. 08:57.80 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, exactly and if you think about the darkboard and how we see it now and it's quite satirical and you know he's quite. He's sort of seen as a bit of a um, a comedy kind of easy leg to pull sort of thing. Um, then that's kind of reflective of our political leaders. 09:04.95 archaeoteacup Yeah. 09:14.20 Ashleigh Airey And how we react to them. Yeah, so we often you know you think of like Trump he is a very terrifying man and the fact that he has so much or he had so much power but he's but everyone made a joke for him because I mean that's how we react in our modern society. So when you're looking at like the kind of silly. 09:14.67 archaeoteacup Ah, ah we see them. Yeah. 09:22.93 archaeoteacup Gone You might again as freely. Yeah. 09:33.90 archaeoteacup And yeah. 09:34.16 Ashleigh Airey Dark Lord that is relatable to you and but have you ever read like the sort of truth series by Terry Good kind. You might remember them. 09:40.48 archaeoteacup I Don't think so. 09:46.68 Ashleigh Airey Um, from a Tv show called the legend of the seeker series that was based on the books but was in the early two thousand s yeah well I remember this when I was doing the research for this and the dark lord and that is called dark and ra which just sounds like a very dark lord name doesn't it and he sort of it's meant to strike. 09:51.10 archaeoteacup Um I do not know it. But I am going to look it up. 10:01.96 archaeoteacup There wasn't the. 10:06.39 Ashleigh Airey Fear into in the books. He's quite terrifying right? Um, he combines like to that kind of totalitarian rule again, but he also combines the superficial reasonableness of the cult leaders that were around in the. Media in the 70 s and and into the 90 s so if you think about any type of cult leader in the media and that kind of satanic panic. That's a representative of him but in the tv show. He's very he wears the long robes he has very nice hair long dark hair. He's actually more attractive. 10:24.30 archaeoteacup Of. 10:31.88 archaeoteacup Earth. Oh. 10:43.35 Ashleigh Airey Then he should be in the books and the books he's like severely disfigured and like got graying skin but and in in the tv show. He's charismatic and I remember watching it like Hu it's probably well. The problem started but you know so there's a different kind of ah. 10:44.78 archaeoteacup Right. 11:02.10 Ashleigh Airey Ah, dark lord for each society but they're always extremely powerful and even in the modern sense so they hold sweet overva lands they're often titled like ah the lady from Glenn Cook's black company books and or the dark one from the wheel of time series that they control armies and even magic itself. 11:02.57 archaeoteacup The. 11:14.87 archaeoteacup Oh did edit. Ah. 11:19.73 archaeoteacup You well? Well yeah, they're stupid and I guess they're stupid in a bit of way that they don't realize why their plans can't be like yeah I know what you mean like. 11:21.45 Ashleigh Airey But they are stupid that surprisingly so. 11:37.82 archaeoteacup Usually the hero of course the hero always has to overcome them right? like they the. 11:42.58 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, they have to that's the whole the point of the dark Lord is that they will never triumph. Um, and they always underestimate good and they always think that they know good more than good itself. 11:44.70 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which but then in and indeed most of the time they just don't understand. It's it's almost just because they don't. Understand the concept of good so they don't like I'm trying to think I think it's in Harry Potter where the whole thing about love right? and so it's love is the 1 thing that can banish the dark lord in that one because he just doesn't understand it and it's not something that he has any power against and and all of that kind of thing. So it's sort of. 12:14.62 Ashleigh Airey Um. 12:21.74 archaeoteacup Yeah, the the good things and I do like that indeed. It's always dark like it's dark versus light also in like Star Wars right? It's the empire. They're always dark and then the people in the rebellion are always wearing like white clothes and things. Yeah. 12:24.62 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 12:32.29 Ashleigh Airey Well yeah, exactly and I mean Star Wars is basically Space Nazis isn't it like that's what it is. It's meant to be showing you What could have happened and and kind of unpacking all that kind of generational trauma from the previous generation and and as they're growing up. 12:45.80 archaeoteacup Yeah. 12:50.67 Ashleigh Airey Um, so yeah, they're they're always fighting the light and they're always the dark and that's why they're called the the dark Lord you know they personify darkness They personify death magic. They're often connected to magic and an old wheeled like they wield magic like no other magician. 12:56.22 archaeoteacup Yes, yeah. 13:10.46 Ashleigh Airey Or sorcerer or even wizard they are often on par with the highest wizard in their series as well. But for some reason they don't ever quite use that power to the fullestitch fronttage and it's always Im some scrawny kid with a sword and a magical artifact that comes along and is like ah. 13:13.24 archaeoteacup Um, is. 13:19.20 archaeoteacup Right. Yeah, our little hobbit or a little like yeah but again, it's that whole thing if they just don't I guess yeah you they would only see so for example in in Lord of the rings. You know saron seas. 13:28.99 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 13:36.44 archaeoteacup Gandaf and he's like yes this is my you know thwarting enemy or whatever. But then he's like oh that Hobby I can't hob it so it wait. What's the habitbb but hang on what what? So no, don't be ridiculous. It's kind of like this isn't really an analogy but so I play waterpolo or I played waterpolo and um, generally in. 13:41.93 Ashleigh Airey It is I gonna hobbit is really gonna be my dumbfall like. 13:55.51 archaeoteacup As in a lot of sports. There's a certain time where the strength of male players does make a difference and if you're playing against male players or female players. So I usually played in like female only teams but in Germany they're mixed and most of the time that was then kind of sucked for me because like there's only so. 14:02.47 Ashleigh Airey M. 14:13.65 archaeoteacup Much I can do if like the person that I'm playing against is like twice as strong as me. Um, and so 1 thing though that was quite useful was that my shots on goal weren't quite as fast as the mail shots on goal. Um, just yeah because of the strength in my arm. But that meant that actually I got it in. 14:27.37 Ashleigh Airey Oh. 14:33.14 archaeoteacup As long as my aim was good which wasn't always the case I could quite often get it in because the goalie would be more expecting the mail shots so they'd move too fast so they'd move so that their hand would be in a particular place like when the male ball would be there but my ball would get there like half second later. So. 14:50.50 Ashleigh Airey Ah, so they'd like shifted. Yeah. 14:51.47 archaeoteacup They't. They'd be like pushing themselves out of the water. But then they'd already be down a little bit by the time my ball got there so actually got it and it's kind of an analogy for this because it's that assumption that like ah but only the greatest power and the greatest magic could thwart me but actually in the end it turns out to be something that they didn't even consider would be a thing like it's. 15:09.14 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, no, exactly it's that kind of David and Goliath Esque story isn't it where there is always someone who's super o p and everyone is terrified of them because clearly for the dark lord. 15:10.60 archaeoteacup You know what? I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 15:22.57 Ashleigh Airey They always rule over their lands with like a terrifying fist and they have armies at their leisure that they sometimes birth from weird scenarios like you know you know the urucao whatever you know it's the same sort of stuff and then there's just a ragtag bunch of kids. 15:25.27 archaeoteacup Um, death. 15:30.40 archaeoteacup Yeah, right? Yeah, it's always yeah yeah. 15:41.90 Ashleigh Airey Go along and they're like a a little sword and they've got a little stone and they're like they somehow defeat this evil ancient darkness. Um, and I suppose that's ah, an epitome of like ah how you feel when you're reading these books as a kid. There is sometimes an oval. 15:44.98 archaeoteacup This. 15:56.71 archaeoteacup And. 16:00.56 Ashleigh Airey Arching Narrative of like something you have to overcome or maybe a parent or something like that that you're kind of scared of and that's the the dark Lord they have all this authority but they never fully wield it um and they overestimate themselves and they underestimate everybody else in the book. 16:06.45 archaeoteacup Right. 16:15.95 archaeoteacup Yeah, no, which isn't that a quote from Lord of the ring something about even the smallest person can change the course of history or something like that like it's I guess that whole thing right of trying to show. 16:18.57 Ashleigh Airey Especially those they perceive as weak and so yeah. 16:25.84 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 16:31.11 archaeoteacup Kids or those who are who are maybe not so so strong as the dark lord that like you can still do it. You're the one you know. 16:36.30 Ashleigh Airey Well yeah, exactly and you got to think Tolkien he was in was it world War One Tolkien was in um and he's seeing young lads like himself go to fight in the trenches to overcome this enemy that has been ah you know, kind of propagandaized. 16:43.10 archaeoteacup Ah. Right. 16:53.10 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, that. 16:53.41 Ashleigh Airey And in the media around them. So yeah, he's seeing young boys fighting and so that's pretty evident when you're looking at Lord the rings and sauron and and kind of looking at the kind of and real life situation around it and why he would be inspired to write something like that and but hung on. Oh. 17:01.50 archaeoteacup Yeah. 17:08.75 archaeoteacup Yeah. 17:12.83 Ashleigh Airey Ah, think I've left the cauldron boiling. Um, yeah, just let me check that out and we'll be back with you soon. 17:15.74 archaeoteacup Ah, ah I thought I heard something bubbling.