00:00.00 Ashleigh Airey Welcome back and cheers thanks for getting me the right paint this time tilly. 00:03.57 archaeoteacup Jazz. 00:04.19 Gen Chairs. 00:06.38 archaeoteacup I yeah sorry I didn't realize that it was half pints when you did it before. 00:11.65 Ashleigh Airey Called half pints so we've had a big discussion about everything that we know about archaeology fantasy and we've got this scenario where we really need your help Jen so I want to ask you? How would you deal with this scenario based on your. Archaeological experience. 00:30.80 Gen Okay, so first thing we need to do is we need to draw a very detailed plan of the scene because I can imagine it would be an absolute maze and we need to know exactly where we're taking our samples from so once that's done. 00:36.23 archaeoteacup Me. 00:40.60 Ashleigh Airey I. 00:46.94 Gen I would probably try and sample each distinct end that is much if I can identify them I can Imagine. It's types with carnage but with they based I am after that I would probably take all the samples back to the lab and I'll have a look under the microscope. Um, and I would try and Id the species because O if we know ends. The periods of the trees that they're looking after so I can imagine if we did the species will be have a very good idea of the identity of the particular end if that doesn't and it's fairly easy if you have burntwood or waterlogged would it each. 01:09.95 archaeoteacup Um. 01:15.10 archaeoteacup Um, and just quickly how how easy is it to identify species from samples. 01:26.64 Gen Each tree has its own separate tailor structure that you can identify under the microscope. So it's literative matching patterns. 01:29.67 archaeoteacup Um. 01:33.49 archaeoteacup Okay, okay, I'm sorry for interrupting I was just curious. 01:34.91 Ashleigh Airey Um, okay, but. 01:38.20 Gen That's fine I am right after that if we still have some questions. We're not sure I would probably want to take Denver samples and I think that's where things might get a bit tricky and we'll have to be very diplomatic because. 01:50.10 archaeoteacup And and what a dead draw samples. 01:54.50 Gen The andro samples are well I'll probably go for cores. So a core is you literally take a drill to a tree and you take about a five millimeter core out of it and it doesn't harm the tree but I can imagine approaching an int with a big drill will raise some questions but. 02:01.13 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 02:13.31 Gen Feel like if you explain to them that that's the best way that we can identify them and also their fallen comrades I feel like they would agree and the main purpose of it is that we use it to build our dentro chronology. Essentially what you do is you take a sample and you count triggerings. And the idea is that every tree ring represents a year of the tree grove and if the tree was growing in good conditions. It will be a big ring. Obviously the tree grew more if the tree was growing in poor conditions to the smaller ring so by chasing the sequence of rings. You can go back to the exact ear when the. The last tree ring was laid so when the bark has when the tree died so that's how would go about it. 02:58.29 archaeoteacup Um, and but if we have so why would it be necessary to then take samples from the living ends. How would that help us in this. 02:59.66 Ashleigh Airey Ah. 03:11.67 archaeoteacup Dendric chronology thing. 03:12.10 Gen That will help us because we'll know that the trees have grown in the same forest. So we if we have a tree that is dead And for example, we have the last 5 rings. That then correspond exactly to 5 rings in a living tree or be able to compare the living tree sequence to the dead tree sequence and that will help us get more precise date. 03:38.82 archaeoteacup Ah, so you almost have like if you have like 1 piece of paper with like 10 lines on and then the top 3 lines are the same as the bottom 3 lines on another bit of paper then you can kind of make a whole. Oh. 03:41.53 Gen Yeah, that's exactly idea that's how you built tender phronologies and that's what how we do it nowadays is where we still sample living trees to begin our chronology. 03:54.88 archaeoteacup Okay, but what about if there's ah, are there any bits missing or are you able to just kind of go like it is it pretty solid. The dendro chronology I mean what? if for example, we're looking at the ends and then there's like oh but we don't have any bits in between this age range. 03:56.14 Ashleigh Airey Ah. 04:03.41 Gen I am. 04:10.34 Gen Well hopefully that won't happen I'm hoping it's always a possibility but I feel like hopefully with ah enough samples. We'll be able to build a pretty solid chronology. 04:11.23 Ashleigh Airey With the. 04:15.58 archaeoteacup Ah. 04:23.10 Ashleigh Airey Ah, so I have 2 questions the first is how would be able to tell between an end and just a normal tree. 04:31.17 archaeoteacup Ah, good question. 04:33.90 Gen That is a good question. Um, how would be able to I would expect that there would be some difference in the cellular structure I would expect that it might show up in the Denver samples as well because as I said the conditions of the tree are. 04:39.35 Ashleigh Airey And. 04:48.19 Gen Affected the you can see them really clearly in its then draw structure. So I feel like if a tree made poor decisions. It will have some very short very thin rings in there that you'll be able to say oh something's not looking quite right here or if you travel somewhere which ah. Don living Cheop as you can't do if feel like you'll be able to again spot that. 05:13.16 archaeoteacup Um, that's the point can you look at environmental. Yeah, you can see like environmental effects then as well on the on the trees. 05:13.80 Ashleigh Airey Ah, yay of course Yes, you would be able to suppose. Yeah. 05:19.56 Gen Yeah, yeah, absolutely you can see things like and volcanic eruptions. You can see like a really rainy or you can see a really good year. You can start the environment. 05:28.84 archaeoteacup Oh. 05:31.12 Ashleigh Airey So we could really see the the impact of what's been going on in fanghorn forest for generations perhaps years. Ah, when you know the aks of basically cutting them down and using them and burning them and. 05:46.51 Gen Ah. 05:47.65 Ashleigh Airey We could see that impact and the growth of the surrounding its in that forest. Yeah, that's fantastic. 05:50.38 Gen You should be able to. Yeah. 05:54.00 archaeoteacup Did ants come were they always there or did they come from somewhere else. Do we know this. 06:01.81 Ashleigh Airey The good question to me I was like oh God My right just cut that bit and I'll know exactly am where did ends come from. 06:05.49 Gen This consistability. 06:06.92 archaeoteacup Um, sorry I. 06:16.42 Gen Ah. 06:20.50 Gen Ah I feel like I read that I can't remember. 06:20.84 archaeoteacup Ah I feel like I've read it somewhere and I feel like they've traveled from somewhere. 06:20.96 Ashleigh Airey Yeah I know they they were created So The the trees of the great forest who during the age of stars were under threat as a result, the great spirits created by Eru of Volta. Upon the request of Virvana came to the forest to live among the trees and protect them. They later became referred to as ents. 06:44.40 archaeoteacup Huh So ents weren't always just people that were living there. They were mythical creatures from elsewhere that came there as it's. 06:51.44 Ashleigh Airey Well let me let me freeze this properly so it looks you know like an actual reply and yeah, let me just check the ebb wait evidence the origins for Eds can be found in the Valla Quinta as an exchange between Yovana The Queen of the valor a lover of all things that grow in the Earth and manway. 06:54.75 archaeoteacup Okay, yes, sorry do you want me to ask a question again. 07:11.10 Ashleigh Airey Ah, the first of Kings Lord the realm of ardour de secrety awesome about the dwarves. 07:13.84 archaeoteacup Um, I assume this is I assume this fits to be cut. Ah. 07:21.85 Ashleigh Airey They were goodness. That's a long history I'm never going to be able to read all that. Ah, but I'll just go for the little bit. Yeah, okay, ask that question again. 07:27.39 archaeoteacup That's why they came from somewhere else. Yeah, Okay, ah, but so based on that because obviously trees they sort of grow in the same place and therefore it's unlikely that they'd move from place to place but did ents. But ents always in Fangon forest or did they come from somewhere else. Do We know this? ok. 07:47.49 Ashleigh Airey It seems like they came from perhaps somewhere else. Um, so the story of the ant sort of begins then there the trees of the great forest and during the age of stars. They're under threat and so these great spirits that are created. Um, upon request of Irvana They they come into the forest to live among the trees and protect them and as they kind of nurture these trees they later evolve into looking like the trees and then they're known as ents. 08:14.70 archaeoteacup But presumably then the sort of earlier layers if you would do a dendrochronolical sample wouldn't actually look like trees then right and you imagine looking at a plant sample of being like oh that's a blood cell. 08:18.84 Gen Um, yeah, presume but don't look like people which is kind of creepy. Oh oh God Oh no. 08:26.40 Ashleigh Airey Oh yeah. 08:32.38 Ashleigh Airey That would be really unlike me I worryome actually. 08:35.66 archaeoteacup Right. 08:36.73 Gen But I suppose if you're an archeologist still midwar. You have to kind of expect that thing to happen. 08:43.82 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, yeah, true and it actually reminds me of the um Naomi Novak thing with the trees engulfing humans. Um, so yeah, that's very interesting. My second question would be could we get. 08:45.46 archaeoteacup Um. 08:52.55 Gen Ah. 08:59.16 Ashleigh Airey Like Ids from them could we actually identify a downed fallen end. Um, as part as someone that the living end would know and then we can get like a kind of kind of a human or human Id an end Id from them to to can repatriate them properly. 09:14.70 Gen Ah. 09:18.48 Ashleigh Airey And give them the burial right that they deserve. 09:20.13 Gen I am I suppose it would depend on if the living ends not the exact age of the fallen ends if we're using the dendro samples or if we're going by species if there's only one end looking after 1 species. 09:25.47 Ashleigh Airey M. 09:34.50 Gen Then we'll definitely know that's that end. But if there were several then it might be a bit difficult to differentiate between them. 09:38.83 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 09:39.36 archaeoteacup Yeah I feel like from what you said earlier ash that there's probably is only one per species I'm not sure actually. 09:44.25 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, that would make a lot of things easier. Yeah, it would and I suppose they kind of look or they don't look similar I suppose do they? they saw the remains that we would find would. 09:46.91 Gen Well, that will make things easier. 10:01.30 Ashleigh Airey Probably be identifiable but I was thinking more just on a ah kind of cellular basis. Um, yeah, but that would be quite interesting because I think the Hogglebush society of fankhorn. 10:05.40 Gen Yeah, that's what I was sossuming that they are burnt down and like unrecognizable. 10:12.84 archaeoteacup Um, have another. 10:16.40 archaeoteacup The. 10:18.63 Ashleigh Airey Forrest would actually really like that to be able to identify the ends who have fallen and and kind of have that record of them and sacrificing themselves for the the greater good as they March onto eisengard. 10:29.36 archaeoteacup And in terms of so this Dendro Chrono Juckle Dendra kind of no look local den Drooker a knowledge Honestly I can't say this word Dendro chronological Gen Gen What? where's the um. 10:34.55 Gen Are. 10:42.71 Ashleigh Airey Den choconologyle. 10:47.75 archaeoteacup Do chronological chronoological. Yeah Dendro chronological there you go I was trying to put the emphasis on the Cro and I don't this a dendro chrono logic and that just doesn't doesn't work. Okay. 10:50.52 Gen Ah, it's dentro dentro like a tree chronological. 10:51.15 Ashleigh Airey Denjo cronon. 10:57.19 Ashleigh Airey Ah, there you go you got it. 11:03.98 archaeoteacup Right? Native English speaker here. Um so the tero chronological something um, sounds like indeed and you mentioned as well. It's sort of all based a lot on Pattern recognition and sort of being able to compare different things is this something then I mean how has that developed over time within archeology was it. It sounds like it's sort of quite a. 11:06.58 Gen Um. 11:14.19 Gen Um. 11:23.40 Gen Are. 11:23.49 archaeoteacup I Mean no and I don't mean this in a negative way by the way but sort of by simple method I More mean it's something that could have happened than before I don't know isotope analysis dating and you know all of this kind of fancy stuff. It's sort of ah ah, a more straightforward technically way of of looking at things is that true or was it. 11:41.65 Gen Yeah, that's absolutely correct. Yeah I'm I think I believe it was a greek botanist that first noticed it and like 300 bc so yeah it is I there's a note method I think the way we kind of use it nowadays is. 11:43.20 archaeoteacup Different in the past How how is it developed? Basically yeah. 11:52.52 Ashleigh Airey Wow. 11:53.46 archaeoteacup Ah Wow. Okay, really old method. 11:59.30 Gen Probably a bit for later invention maybe Nineteenth century I would say but yeah, it's the fact that Treley are ring every year and then you can compare those rings and notice patterns has been noticed for a very very long time. It's quite coasing. It gives you an unexact date as well. Like everyone was dealt with. 12:00.72 archaeoteacup Are. 12:13.48 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 12:18.61 Gen A c fourteen dating won't know that it gives you this sometimes quite a big range which you don't get with Denver you get an exact here. 12:24.42 archaeoteacup And how far back does it go then I mean do you have those original records from 300 Bc 12:26.20 Ashleigh Airey Um, wow. 12:27.39 Gen Am as far back as there are trees. But I I presumably someone does if it's been recorded. 12:35.45 Ashleigh Airey Um. 12:39.40 archaeoteacup Ah, some bits of paper and then you could just line them up against all the other bits of paper which have all the other lines on them like oh that's amazing. 12:43.10 Gen No yeah in terms of TH here we have complete chronologies going back to thousands of years ago we have back. We had asked. Longest you can overlap them. Yeah. 12:49.36 archaeoteacup Wow That is really cool. 12:53.95 Ashleigh Airey That's fascinating so you could you could? Wow You could just trace trees for Eon that feels like Wow that's amazing. 13:01.66 Gen Earth. 13:05.67 archaeoteacup And are there then any. So I mean this? yeah relatively simple I'm using simple and like inverted commas here. But I don't mean simple in like you know, um, but can you then also use So I'm just thinking for example with people I know that you can. Use things like isotope analysis to look At. For example, oh what?? they've been eating where they were born where they've traveled to and all that kind of thing. Can you do similar things with with trees so more kind of chemical analyses. 13:31.19 Gen Ah. 13:39.12 Gen And we don't tend to do chemical analysis I mean obviously it's an organic material so you can do all sorts of like you can't do c fourteen dating on obviously on charcoal and on 3 remains we um, it's radiocarbon dating. It's essentially um. 13:46.58 archaeoteacup Yeah, and what is c 14 dating. 13:56.52 Gen Measuring the levels of carbon to give you a date. 13:59.22 archaeoteacup Fair enough. 13:59.69 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, it's all about half life and things yeah half life of carbon and it decreases over time I believe and then they can measure that yeah. 14:02.93 Gen Yeah, yeah, yeah. 14:05.54 archaeoteacup Um, that's the radioactivity thing yes with a yeah, yeah, good Sorry I thought I better add that in. 14:17.70 Gen This is. 14:17.36 Ashleigh Airey No, that would be fun that they would be fascinating because ends have teeth. 14:23.73 Gen That's a good question. 14:24.74 archaeoteacup Ah, sure surely not what do they eat? Ah so then they wouldn't need teeth I guess. 14:27.57 Ashleigh Airey I mean would they have like bak teeth. Oh. 14:30.28 Gen They I read about that they eat water. They have spatial type of water that they consume and I don't think they eat that any actual food presumably. 14:43.46 Ashleigh Airey The water could tell you a lot then maybe. 14:43.90 archaeoteacup But then maybe the the moss or the bark or something Anyway, sorry I I also I interrupted you because you were talking about um carbon forty. Sorry um, what were you were going to say. 14:50.87 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, yeah. 14:57.57 Gen Oh I can't remember what I was going to say. 14:58.66 Ashleigh Airey Like can remember what it's We just got blindsided by dents have teeth like. 15:04.94 archaeoteacup Ah. 15:05.39 Gen And I have teeth. 15:10.38 archaeoteacup Ah, no, no I was asking about about chemical analyses that can be done on on trees and plants. Okay, no, that's just really interesting. Yeah, because. 15:14.79 Gen Um, chemical analysis on trees I Honestly honest, can't think what else you can do other than radiocarbon data time and well you can do Um, what called residioanalysis that might help. 15:24.56 Ashleigh Airey Um. 15:29.63 archaeoteacup Ah, arrived. 15:29.73 Ashleigh Airey Um, um. 15:30.30 Gen If you want to figure out what they were eating although we know what they were eating So don't have to be very useful for what they were drinking here presumably? yeah. 15:32.77 Ashleigh Airey But eat there eat it and they're drinking. Yeah, they're drinking the lovely water but you could probably do something with the water right? If you yeah figured out if it's different species of end I Suppose's like tree species I mean that that drink maybe they need different types of water. 15:38.96 archaeoteacup See where that came from. 15:50.46 Gen Maybe if. 15:52.59 Ashleigh Airey Ah, this special water. Um, and you could look at that I suppose that would be somewhere if there a living being in that case, How yeah. 15:58.71 archaeoteacup Because can you see? For example, there's you know trees that live in really salty marshlands or something there's trees that live in like freshwater situations and that's where they're getting their water from. Can you see that aspect So the kind of the nutrients that the trees are getting. 16:07.55 Gen Um. 16:15.86 archaeoteacup Are there ways to see that through kind of archaeo botanical analyses or is that not really something that's done. 16:20.21 Gen And that's not really something that we do very often I can't imagine a scenario where that will be a research question other than if you have ants Obviously um, but yeah, yeah, but you do have and obviously you have certain trees that favor certain conditions. So like if you find lots of. 16:27.88 archaeoteacup Ah, who are moving around right? yeah. 16:30.25 Ashleigh Airey Here. Okay. 16:38.15 Gen All and barch on the site. You know that the conditions were quite damp. You have different plants that favor different habitats and sometimes you have like raising canals in certain species ah like and middleeral formations and things that that you can see under the microscope. So but I presume you can. Yeah you can. 16:53.30 archaeoteacup You are. 16:57.67 Gen Maybe try and determine what type of water the ends for drinking but I've never had to do it before? yeah. 17:01.69 archaeoteacup Yeah, are they go something new for you to a try. 17:04.75 Ashleigh Airey That's interesting. Yeah, so to recap, we'd probably go for dentro chronology. Yeah and sampling that way and we can tell the type of the tree. 17:10.91 Gen Yeah I would say so yeah because I'm they're presumably big enough. So why not. 17:20.80 archaeoteacup So I Id individuals as well. 17:21.58 Ashleigh Airey They were as well different sampling id um so we can really give you a good picture then really come we we can go back to the hoggle bush society and say hocka push Hobble Bush society and say yeah we can do this. We can really sample. 17:23.17 Gen It. 17:32.91 Gen 5 17:39.80 Ashleigh Airey Ah, the last March of the end and we can give you a good historical and archaeological briefing on it. That's fantastic. So now we've worked that out I think the historical Hobbber Bush society is going to be absolutely thrilled out here's tree beard. So tree beard lead down his wise barkcolored eyes staring into yours. He thanks you for all your help it truly means the world to him to record the histories of the ends he pauses and you see a thought crosses mind you wonder if perhaps he has another mission for you. So Tilly I'm going to need you to roll a charisma. 18:14.16 archaeoteacup Oh right, hang on. Oh it's a 20 jaws. 18:15.79 Ashleigh Airey Check. 18:21.30 Ashleigh Airey A critical success brilliant that means treepiard sees that he can trust you he sees a similar goodness and you that he saw in 2 certain hobbits and suggests that maybe in the future you could help him with a quest to record the archeology of the lost endtwives. Ah. 18:36.20 archaeoteacup Ah, that would be really cool and. 18:39.74 Ashleigh Airey That would be fantastic. Well, that's about it for this episode of um, my trial. We hope you enjoyed this quest. Thank you so much Jen for helping us out with this particular problem. It was great to have you join us and we've definitely learned a lot. No problem. 18:50.25 Gen Thanks for having me. 18:54.76 Ashleigh Airey If There's any suggestions that people have for an episode that they've gotten from a fantasy book or an archaeological concept that they don't really understand and might be able to explain through fantasy or something that in a book that they want to find out from an archaeological viewpoint do get in contact via email or social media. All our info is on our show notes. As well as references and any links that we have for Jen will be up there too and so you can look at all the different things we've discussed today. 19:20.95 archaeoteacup Oh ah, Ash I just received a new quest from the top office. Oh it's well it's a bit different to what we've done so far. Do you have thermal underwear. Well, you might need to order some for this next quest. 19:22.53 Ashleigh Airey Oh really, what is it. 19:33.43 Ashleigh Airey Oh.