00:00.00 archaeoteacup Hello you're listening to episode 9 of and my trow where we look at the fantastic side of archaeology and the archeological side of fantasy I'm tilly and today we are going to be talking all about dragons. 00:09.87 Ashleigh Airey And I mash. 00:16.63 Ashleigh Airey Very exciting and joining us today to help us on our quest is a dragon rider and zoo archeologist who we met on the road Alex for Patrick. Yeah. 00:17.43 archaeoteacup Very very exciting. 00:27.18 Alex Hello Hello hi. 00:29.60 archaeoteacup Thank you for joining us today. Alex lovely to meet you what a coincidence to meet you on the road like this I mean it's it's you know it's as if fate purpose for us so you are as ash mentioned a zoo archeologist. But what's exactly is your specialism. How did you get into that topic. 00:35.21 Alex Ah know just have 1 00:47.79 Alex So I am technically a zoologist of specifically later prehistoric Britain expanding slightly into the medieval on accidents. Um so real quick when I started my ph d I was told I was going to do. 00:55.41 archaeoteacup Oh. 01:05.12 Alex Later prehistoric britain and I spent all my time studying and learning all about later prehistoric Britain until we got the dates for 90% of the bones we were looking at and wouldn't you know what they turns out to all be medieval so 6 01:07.49 archaeoteacup Um. 01:18.64 archaeoteacup How now. 01:20.93 Ashleigh Airey Um, I mean. 01:21.86 Alex Six months before I was supposed to hand in my ph d I had to basically learn all about the medieval and post medieval which would a bit. 01:24.26 archaeoteacup Ah, ah, no. 01:28.46 archaeoteacup Oh I mean could you not have just done 2 ph ds like 1 on like the theory of post like late prehistory and then like a very short 1 on like oh. 01:39.24 Alex Yeah, strangely that was frowned upon ah so yeah I just learned real quick but you know it was really interesting and that's now I Guess what I know? yeah. 01:50.14 archaeoteacup Um, then know everything? Well yeah, that's great and um, you mentioned you've you finished the Ph D What are you working on right now are you still doing research. 02:03.12 Alex So I'm I'm um, finally writing up my Ph D and that's about as much of the archeology I do now I've kind of moved into museum researching. So not as bone E but still heritage Ti e. 02:04.84 archaeoteacup Yes, that's. 02:19.33 Alex But I'm still doing a little bit of Zerarch on the side mainly through actually writing up all this stuff. It's ah the sad part about your ph d is you have to write it twice. Basically it's bad. Yeah, and I've done many I've done many. 02:25.68 archaeoteacup Um. 02:27.77 archaeoteacup Right? Think it would be so nice if you could just do like a podcast episode on it and just be like this is my stuff. True. 02:38.40 Alex But they won't you know I mean they feel like they should because you know like in the u k at least you can you know do like a ph d by publication right? You should be able to do a ph d by podcasting. It's 2023 02:45.60 archaeoteacup Right? We should fight like and it can still be peer reviewed. You can still you know and because then you can have followups so you can do your thing. That's that's so open access as well. That's like a really nice transparent way to do research because you do your your episode and then the reviews would come back and you'd be like so these were with the reviews. This is what. 02:45.83 Ashleigh Airey Oh definitely definitely? yeah. 03:05.44 archaeoteacup I need to change and yeah, it would be I like that? yeah. 03:08.14 Ashleigh Airey I Like that too. It's easier I think and it's not like terrifying when you do like you Viva and all that kind of stuff too. And yeah, yeah. 03:10.84 Alex Yeah, let's make. 03:16.64 archaeoteacup Ah, oh. 03:19.30 Alex Yeah, no I mean I did my my my viva at home because I obviously did it during a pandemic. Um, but I was surrounded by cats at my mother-in-law's house. So like that was really nice. So. 03:23.60 archaeoteacup Right? And at least then you can like turn off the computer and just go and you know collapse on the sofa and go rather than having to then also like go for drinks with people afterwards or something and. 03:39.72 Alex Yeah, basically it turned off my laptop and I went head first into a cat. 03:41.38 archaeoteacup Ah, to try and be sociable. 03:45.15 archaeoteacup Ah, soundss a ideal I may I have my defense coming up next week actually well by the time this podcast goes out. Hopefully it'll be done and dusted but um, yes, slightly trying trying not to think about it too much. But thank you? well and and we mentioned their podcast. So indeed we should have. 03:46.89 Ashleigh Airey Um. 03:53.97 Alex Move Good luck. Good luck. You'll be okay if I can do it anywhere. Could do it. That's honestly. 03:58.60 Ashleigh Airey He did him. 04:04.85 archaeoteacup Started out with that that you have been running the fantastic ah archeo animals podcast which I think then by the time this episode goes out the last episode of of your podcast will be out as we're coming out to Mid -december um so I don't know no. 04:17.70 Alex Yeah, it probably will be so we did over about five and a half years basically so good run and you know things have to come to an end I think at some point we would run out of actual topics. You can only talk so much about animal bones I think and. 04:24.54 archaeoteacup Wow. 04:36.99 Alex Ah, we were really starting to stretch for material but it was good. You know we had really good. Um, you know, ah feedback from people and lots of people who emailed us saying like you know this is the first time they ever even heard of zoo archaeology and that was the whole point in the podcast and I know there's people who ended up doing podcasts. 04:49.19 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 04:56.54 Alex Because of the the ah the thing. So yeah. 04:58.35 archaeoteacup Um, ah influencer. Yeah, nice. Well I mean I Yeah I love your podcast I Especially like the ones as you can probably tell because we started this podcast I Especially like the ones which are on Oh what's the word, The not Zeno um the like fantastical. 05:04.78 Ashleigh Airey Um. 05:17.70 archaeoteacup Creatures or the the kind of um oh what's the word. There was a word that you used in the titles and I can't remember what it is now. Yes, that's the 1 05:21.65 Alex pted. Yeah I mean all the ones that aren't actually based in science or zoo archaeology or but I think the ones that are most popular strangely enough. 05:25.59 Ashleigh Airey Drifted Mothman 05:29.79 archaeoteacup Um, exactly yeah well there you know. 05:37.12 Alex We tried. We tried to put Zoar galdi in everything and sometimes that means where you decide to talk about video games. We liked or whatever. It's fine. 05:45.77 archaeoteacup Well, we've you know made a whole podcast out of it now by just being able to talk about fantasy. But although so before we go into that though. So Obviously you are a fan of Zoo Archeology If It's you know perpetrating every part of your life. It sounds like um, what? What do you enjoy about this topic. Why did you get into. Zoo archaeology in particular. 06:01.10 Alex Okay, so the the the kind of professional thought provoking answer is that I find I do find like the fact that animals really embody so much of like everything is not just you know looking at animal bones. 06:08.48 archaeoteacup Um. 06:19.40 Alex Thinking about how people think about animals. It's how people interact with animals How animals interact with the environment symbolism. It's really interesting for me, especially someone who came originally from an anthropological background more so than an archaeological one in my undergrad. 06:36.15 archaeoteacup Um. 06:37.79 Alex The the actual answer is that people want you to know so much about human bone and I found it so overwhelming and made me so stressed out that I realize in zoo archeology people are just happy that you know the difference between like a dog and a horse and those kind of bare minimum kind of like low. 06:43.90 Ashleigh Airey A. 06:57.33 Alex Standards is something I strive for so I ended up doing zoar archeology although jokes on me I ended up doing a fair amount of human osteology in my Ph D Yeah, yeah, no definitely I mean it is zoo archeology is actually quite difficult and as. 07:04.82 archaeoteacup There you go this karma young. 07:09.70 Ashleigh Airey Um. 07:15.26 archaeoteacup Yeah I can imagine. 07:15.36 Alex Far as how much you have to know and there's people who are much better at it than I am I'm so very much someone who studies to like have a reference collection. You know there's people who are like they can tell you the bone the side. The age of the animal like I my brain doesn't work like that I just look at the bone I'm like that's not human and give me 5 minutes and we can work from there. 07:33.58 archaeoteacup Um. 07:36.50 archaeoteacup Well, but I feel like a lot of zoo archaeologists specialize in a particular animal or or at least species or something but it sounds like you are more a lot broader so that must be a lot more difficult indeed to be able to have like all of that knowledge in your brain in one time. 07:36.77 Ashleigh Airey Um. 07:48.73 Alex Yeah I mean I kind of as specific as I got was more like like like I said later prehistoric Britain but also really specifically like ritual and funerary approaches to ZoArcheology so it's still I think maybe it's the kind of abstract esoteric. Stuff that I'm more drawn to to be fair I did try to become a fish bone person and my master's and that was horrible and never do it again. 0 to ten worst three months of my life. 08:16.74 Ashleigh Airey Um. 08:19.20 archaeoteacup I work with a lot of fishbone people and I look at the work they do and think how how how are you finding this enjoyable. 08:25.20 Alex They are They are God's strongest soldiers like. 08:31.48 archaeoteacup It's oh yeah, but and so I mean that's the most exciting thing or the the nice thing about it and but I imagine that there's also negative aspects potentially to zoo archeology in particular or something that's frustrating about it or is it all all roses. 08:47.67 Alex I Think it's sometimes undervalued by non-zearrks in that you know it's ah it's a very common attitude I feel like if people kind of you out Zooar could you like run into some animal bones. It's like like forgot to deal with this. And like I share that sentiment with again fish bones small like rodent bones Amphibians which I've like literally never looked at in my life and I probably have I Just don't know it. Um. 09:10.38 archaeoteacup There's just so many. 09:11.67 Ashleigh Airey Um, you know. 09:19.88 Alex But I you know I think as much as I dislike those small bones I do also know that there's so much you can learn about it like something like Amphibians can tell you so much about the environment or like past environments and as painful as it is to have to look at these tiny bones. You know it's It's kind of worth it. 09:30.77 archaeoteacup Ah. 09:38.35 Alex Sometimes I think I mean that was part of the reason why we started. The podcast is one I didn't think a lot of people even knew about Zooar archeology and two I felt like even in the field. It was kind of you know, undervalued So I'd hoped maybe this would help I don't think we've helped in fact I'm sure we've probably like dinged the ah. 09:55.93 archaeoteacup I Don't think so. 09:57.91 Alex Reputation a bit more ah but you know we tried. It's fine. 10:01.57 archaeoteacup But and so now you said you're working and with museum work a lot. You're writing up all the papers for the for your Ph D research I mean should I ask if there's any other plans for the future is that a question I said steer clear of. 10:12.84 Alex I Mean as ah as a migrant I would like to just live in this country for the next couple of years and ah yeah, that's it's the thing where like so I'm doing my postdoc work right? I'm not my second postdoc and you know my Postdocs supervisorrs have been great because they're always really keen on. 10:19.84 archaeoteacup Ah. 10:27.37 archaeoteacup Ah, but it. 10:31.63 Alex Professional development but whenever they asked me like oh what are your you know career plans I'm always like I'd like to pay my rent I'd like to be able to afford to eat and it's like really hard to get of the survival mindset which I don't think the Ph D helps like. 10:43.23 archaeoteacup Fair. 10:48.10 Alex And think in an ideal world to be great to like use the ph d to really think about your career but meanwhile I think for most people these days. It's kind of like all right? Well am I gonna do in a few months yeah yeah Yeah, 10:55.44 archaeoteacup Yes, great 4 years page great what next? yeah fair yeah I can imagine no no, no well well moving on swiftly that hopefully happens. 11:00.84 Ashleigh Airey Um, especially in the UK as well. It's abs a rubbish at the moment. So yeah. 11:07.20 Alex Sorry to be a bummer but but. 11:13.96 Ashleigh Airey Um. 11:14.74 archaeoteacup Um, but of course the the rest of this podcast is about fantasy which I will pass over to my fantasy expert here. 11:19.50 Ashleigh Airey Oh I'm the expert fantastic and but yeah, do you enjoy reading fantasy Alex. 11:28.80 Alex I mean again I'm going to be Bumer I used to. But I think there's something like I don't know if it's just me. But I think when you start your Ph D your brain just is like I can't read anything. That's not hard like nonfiction like papers like I've read a. 11:42.53 archaeoteacup Um, f. 11:45.91 Alex Loads of nonfiction the last four years and whenever I have to try and read something even I'm a fancy. He's just fiction I actually really struggle with it and. 11:51.95 archaeoteacup Oh. 11:52.87 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, yeah I can a lot of people say that don't they especially during their Ph D It's really difficult to kind of separate because you feel like all of your time needs to be taken up by research and reading and. 11:57.87 archaeoteacup And. 12:09.52 archaeoteacup Or even even if you don't have the the guilt factor of it. It's just the fact that you yeah like Alex said I mean even for masters or bachelors students as well. I've heard the same thing right? that it's just you're so mentally exhausted the end of a ah day that you can't. 12:14.11 Alex And. 12:23.15 Alex I Think it's cause you like are learning especially even in your undergrad you're learning a new way of reading and then once your brain goes into that mode. It's really hard to get out of it. Especially if youre your obviously the sciences. Um, so you know yeah before that you know you are reading a lot of fiction. 12:23.89 archaeoteacup Yeah, focus too much on that on a new book. 12:31.80 archaeoteacup Ah. 12:33.58 archaeoteacup Now. 12:41.94 archaeoteacup Oh. 12:42.87 Alex Because of school because it's part of your curriculum and then after that you're so focused. It's really hard and I mean I do I do read I try really hard to read fiction sometimes although way is kind of ah um I do really like um the the Kingkiller chronicles which is probably like the last fantasy I've read which is the name of the wind. 13:00.44 Ashleigh Airey Oh yeah. 13:01.96 Alex And a wise man's fear I really like although again, it's like 1 of those like I don't know is there like a equivalent and fantasy because you have like hard science right? where it's like very grounded in like scientific fact I feel like it's very similar like. 13:03.93 archaeoteacup I've heard of them I haven't read them. Yeah. 13:13.50 archaeoteacup Ah. 13:18.51 Alex Ah, hard fast. He's not like the right word for it. But it's kind of like a yeah I guess ah I like there's like a real science to every like magic has like a kind of a science a logic to it. Yeah, which I again might be. 13:18.60 Ashleigh Airey It high fantasy. Yeah, it's like the wizard of go from off and travel to the such and such yeah. 13:19.92 archaeoteacup High fantasy and like cozy fantasy I Guess would be like the opposite which is my personal favorite. Yeah. 13:31.20 archaeoteacup A reason yeah with him. 13:36.79 Alex How I got into it because my brain was so like you know science focused that I could read it a bit easier because I was like oh yeah, no, it's a and it's one of those fantasy things that has a lot of like lore which I find I Guess this is also like the anthropology bit of me thinking I like that kind of stuff which is why I'm probably gonna try and file. 13:52.59 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 13:55.23 archaeoteacup Hello Hello Oh no, no, you still like still there. 13:55.38 Ashleigh Airey Hello. 13:56.80 Alex Ah, sorry the zencastster said I lost you for a second there cut that up. Um, so yeah I think that's kind of why I might try and finally read the um a song of ice and fire because I know that's very lore heavy. 14:02.50 Ashleigh Airey Um, yeah. 14:09.31 archaeoteacup Ah, ah I I feel like that's like a very high fantasy one as well. 14:12.18 Ashleigh Airey Um, ran in you Yeah, lots of different perspectives and ah machinations that you have to follow. And I am rubbish like keeping track of things I have to sometimes note things down like yeah, this character has such and such because I'm like what color with a hair again like what they look like I can't remember and you go back? And yeah. 14:26.16 archaeoteacup Um. 14:32.66 archaeoteacup I give up on that stuff I must say. 14:35.66 Alex I mean because I read when I was younger I probably have too young to really read it I read the Amber chronicles which is like a mix of fantasy andism. It's like it's high fantasy but then at some point there's like computers and stuff and. 14:43.30 archaeoteacup Ah I think I know that one? Yes, yeah, ah. 14:52.50 archaeoteacup Um, maybe I didn't read that one. Ah. 14:52.61 Alex It's my dad gave it to me and it's like 10 books and he gave me like a really big volume that was all the books and I like I said I think I was too young to really like I wasn't that young but I was like not old enough to really appreciate how dense it was but I remember being really interesting. So I I might need to go back and reread that. But yeah, so. 15:05.96 archaeoteacup Ah, whatever. 15:12.50 Alex Fantasy Fantasy curious. 15:12.39 Ashleigh Airey And so do you think that like your your favorite fantasy book to have one if if it's maybe something you're going to dive back into is there something that you're going to read apart from like a song of ice and fire. 15:13.40 archaeoteacup Ah, hello. 15:24.51 Alex I Think it is the King Chronicles I Think that's one that I reread occasionally although I keep telling myself like you should stop rereading it and read something else because clearly there's it's bad and like I have a huge book log of less like. 15:33.39 archaeoteacup Oh I'm terrible with that as well. I comfort read. 15:42.70 Alex Loads of books I collected during my ph d that are on my like Kindle and it's like a hundred of them and I'm just like I need to stop. But it's really hard I'm so weak. 15:50.81 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 15:54.38 archaeoteacup Ah, well to distract you from ah from the of never ending Pbr list. Ah we have a situation that we need your assistance with which is why it's very convenient that we've met you here on this road so we've been given a historic site to analyze. It's up in the mountains. Lots of caves big. Boulders don't even get me started on the mist although actually at closer sight. It could be smoke and indeed when you look at the ground. It seems to be burnt in lots of different places. A lot of the structures that have been excavated so far appear to have been burnt down something that isn't burnt however is the burial of a huge creature winged. Almost serpent like and when you read the historic accounts of the region. It appears that there were indeed many dragons in the area who would often attack the settlements. However, this is where the situation gets a bit complicated because this particular site was pointed out to us by a dragon. Um, so she flew into the courtyard outside the office one morning caused. 16:48.45 Ashleigh Airey Quite still. 16:49.62 archaeoteacup Quite a stir to put it mildly um and demanded that we discover the true nature of the site and find out as much as we can about the actual dragon buried there so I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts. But first I suggest that maybe we move off the road find a nice sunny spot to maybe set up a picnic or something so ah. We'll go and find that and we'll be right back.